~Hannah

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord, nor of me his prisoner, but share in suffering for the gospel by the power of God, who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness

yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

And we could go on and on. You are quite selective with your quotes and take them for the most part out of their contexts. If there were any room for boasting it has been removed by Christ who has saved us through his own works on our behalf. Do we do good works. Of course, just as you have suggested. Do they merit? Only if the blood of Christ was insufficient. That is where you’re at Jae, stuck with saying that the blood of Christ was a common sacrifice unable to save you beginning to end. The writer of Hebrews declares that anathema and queries you: “With what sacrifice will you be saved?”

Note the quote out of Phillipians, it is God who works the willing and the doing of His good pleasure. If there is boasting then it is in Christ in us the hope of glory. It is he who does the works, for we have died and no longer live, but Christ.

Thanks for commenting Jae, but as you have noticed this is not a RCC blog. I consider and will not repent of it, that the RCC depends upon occult techiques to gain their god’s approval. It is pagan, no more, no less.

After twisting what Paul meant in works of the law, you said:

Remember, this grace is NOT AN IRRESISTIBLE grace, one could refuse it and refuse to do good works.

Does one before they know they have this grace resist it? How are they capable of resisting what they do no know they have? I might say, how does one become born again, by works, or by grace? And, with Paul, if you begin in the Spirit, are you saying that you can complete the work by works? Poppy cock, he says, your attitude says that you have rejected Christ and his sacrifice has become to you of no effect. You, he says, are anathem, condemned, as long as you believe you can add anything to His perfected work. The works we do are prepared for us that we will, walk in them, or as was said, He is working in us to will and to do of his good pleasuer. Good works will always follow regeneration, so also full sanctification through Christ in the end. That is our hope. Anything less is death.

You can post quotes until you are blue in the fingers. But until you repent, that is cease from your own labors, you will remain outside the will of God. Remember, men died before the law. So even where there was not law that demanded works, men stood condemned, eventhough they did not sin in the likeness of Adam. You fracture the true by taking the type, i.e. The Law, and refusing to see that it was merely pointing to that which had always been. Man was cursed to find life by his own works, but when Christ came, the law was done away with in His sacrifice. It is that sacrifice, that positive work which sanctifies all who were given to Christ by the Father. And John said, He has lost not of what the Father gave him, past tense, all past and future believers. The simple fact is that the dead can no longer work, so it cannot be that the can assist Christ who came afterward toward their salvation. Get that formula, and you will have advanced your understanding many fold.

Faith = Justification + Good Works

Directly quoting Reformed Theology (Westminster Conf.): Comments_

Reformed: “Reformed position stated that works/obedience are a NECESSARY part of the Justification formula.”

_Necessary means: indispensable, requisite, requirement – So, in other words, if they are NECESSARY, then it is impossible to be saved without them because that is what “necessary” means! If we are going to say that works are necessary for your salvation, then obviously it has a BEARING on our SALVATION, by definition.

Reformed :“faith is not alone in the person justified, but is always ACCOMPANIED by all the other saving graces”

_Accompany means: To ADD or PUT TOGETHER

Reformed :“but that faith UNACCOMPANIED by works is not genuine”

_Again, accompany means: To ADD or PUT TOGETHER

Reformed : “Yes, justification inevitably and most certainly leads to good works; Good works follow justification”….” NOR does it mean that the justified are always and constantly doing good works”

_Inevitably/certain means: guaranteed, 100 percent ; Neither (used in this statement) means: NOT guaranteed

Reformed : “If you ask whether good works are OPTIONAL or OBLIGATORY in the life of the justified, then the answer is an emphatic ‘yes’

_Optional means: NOT mandatory/NOT required; Obligatory means: required, mandatory, binding.

Do you think there are contradictions with statements against ITSELF?

FORMULAS FOR BOTH:

(Catholic): Faith + Good Works = Justification

(Reformed): Faith = Justification + good works

From BOTH formulas , we can say that the NECESSITY of good works is a MUST for faith to be saving.The Catholics are saying, that faith must be ACCOMPANIED with good works that justifies a man. The Reformed are saying, good works is a result (manifestation) of faith but it is only the faith that is alone that justifies a man.

The formula for Reformed theology, good work (love) have thus become only as a “QUALIFIER” to the faith so that the faith becomes a “saving faith” because they say that ONLY faith and NOT good works is NECESSARY to justify a man. So in other words, it is very clear that good work becomes an appendage or optional , only acts as a demonstrative and not constitutive.

(Reformed): Faith = Justification + good works

According to this formula for it to function properly, good work must be GUARANTEED TO BE produced or manifested by faith of the man or else it will not work – because without the presence of good work, faith is not a saving faith, so it is a “A MUST OR NOTHING”.

Now, the problem is…THERE IS NO Scriptural verse that says faith quarantees good work or faith INEVITABLY- CERTAINLY produces good work . No biblical text proof.

But rather good works must be added by the rational, deliberate, free ACT of the human will, which are also gifts of God to men.

I hope you don’t mind, are you saying that Paul in (Ehp.2:8-9) is excluding ALL WORK, because work of any type would nullify salvation by grace?

If that were the case, then Paul would never be able to say, as he does in Romans 2:13, “The DOERS OF THE LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED”, “For HE WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS” (Rom 2:6)

Brother, you have to clearly differentiate between these:

1.) “Works done before faith/legal debt of works” thst does not contribute to our justification (Rom 4:4,Gal. 2:16, Gal 3:8; Rom. 1:17, Rom. 3:22, Rom 3:28) AND…

2.) “Works done IN faith through love” that CONTRIBUTE to our Salvation as mentioned by the Bible in : (Matthew 16:27; 2 Cor 5:10; Romans 2:13; Rom 13:8 -10;Hebrews 12:14; Lk. 13:24; Heb. 4:11; 1 Cor 15:58 ;Heb 6:10, Col 3:23-24;Luke 10:27-29;Luke 6:46-49;Matthew 7:18-20;Rev 20:12; Matthew 16:27;Matthew 21:28-31;Matthew 25:44-46;Matthew 7:21;James 2:15-24;James 5:20;Matthew 19:21-23; Gal 6:7; Rev 2:23)

As it stands, Paul can say what he says in Romans 2:13 for the same reason he says in Eph 2:10: “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Eph 2:8-10 is one of the clearest passages of Scripture making the distinction between works of debt in which men BOAST as opposed to WORKS PERFORMED UNDER God’s gracious preparation. As the works of debt are characterized in verse 8 as “works of yourselves” or works that elicit men to “boast,” this is the same characterization of works that Paul used in Romans 4:2 when he said: “if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to BOAST about,” which he then described as a matter of “debt” in Romans 4:4. Boasting is the essence of works of debt, for in boasting we are seeking payment, on a legal basis, for our work.

“Law of works” are works of debt which require legal payment. Works of grace do not require legal payment.

Paul doesn’t use the term “all works.” He refers to “works of law” or “works of our own righteousness” or works of “boasting.” On the contrary, Paul says that the works he requires for eternal life (Romans 2:8) and justification (Romans 2:13) are the “gospel” (Romans 2:16).

A person who BOASTS of his own goodness is not, legitimately, attributing his works to God. All kinds of people SAY they attribute their works to God. That’s why Jesus said in Matthew 7:21, “Many will say to Me, did we not do mighty works in your name…and I will say, Depart from me.” This is the whole reason Paul condemned the “boasting” of the Jews when they did their works (Romans 2:17; 3:27; 4:2), since they thought that just by claiming God as their own they had special favor with him.

“Works of debt,”(Romans 4:4) and “faith apart from works of law”( Romans 3:28) “Faith apart from works of law” only means that “works of law” (including Mosaic or ceremonial laws) cannot be added to faith for Justification . Paul does not say “Faith apart from love” or “Faith apart from hope,” since love and hope are under God’s grace. “Works of law” are further explained by Paul in Romans 4:4 as works of LEGAL DEBT, works upon which someone boasts and EXPECT PAYMENT or strict merit. “Works of debt,” which are works done prior (before) to faith, these of course are non-salvific. But Paul does not put the works of Romans 2:4-13 into this category, nor the works of Romans 14:10-12, or those of 1 Cor. 3:12-17; 2 Corinthians 5:10; or any number of passages which speak about works determining our salvation. (Matt 16:27; Luke 23:41; Rom 2:26; 1Cor 3:8; 2Cor 5:10; Gal 6:7; Rev 2:23; Rev 20:12 & 13).

St. Paul never rejected the Law (including Ten Commandments) because the Law was, for St. Paul, the revealed will of God. His rejection is directed at the Jews who believed that they were JUSTIFIED BY THE OBSERVANCE OF THE LAW SO AS TO PUT GOD UNDER A LEGAL OBLIGATION TO SAVE THEM. Paul appeals to the history of Israel to demonstrate their reliance of the Law has not saved them from sin (Romans 2:17-24, 3:9-18). It is this type of work which he is saying is unnecessary both for Jews and for Christians. It is also Catholic doctrine that no work earns the grace of Justification, so there should no dispute between us on this point. Justification is a FREE GIFT of God that you get gratis via His grace.

I think that that Bible is very clear. Justification is not by “faith alone” but by a faith working to completion through love.

Remember, this grace is NOT AN IRRESISTIBLE grace, one could refuse it and refuse to do good works.

Take a look at these Pauline texts where the term appears and I bet you’ll be shocked on why it it our “good works” with faith in Christ that will determine our fate:

According to St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:3, ” NO ONE can say “Jesus is LORD” except by the Holy Spirit.” (MEANING: they are Christians, so they must have faith-comments below).

Matthew 7:21: “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

How much more plainer can it be? Thet say, talk is cheap, put your action where you faith is, then you can be called sons and daughters of God (Romans 2:13, James 1:22-25, 1 John 3:18,23).

I love this verses: Matthew 25:31-40 ff

“Then the RIGHTEOUS will answer him, “LORD, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me. Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels..”

Please note that in verse 37, these people are called “righteous.” Why? Read verses 35, 36, & 40. Please note that there is no mention of faith at all in any of these passages. These people do call Jesus “LORD” and so I assume them to be Christians, so they must have had faith. But did faith alone save them? No. Read verses 35, 36, & 40 again.

Notice ALSO in verse 44 that the goats (i.e., the non-elect) also address Jesus as “LORD.” According to St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:3, ” NO ONE can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.” These goats then are obviously Christian believers who must have faith in him; yet they are damned anyway. Why? BECAUSE THEY DID NOT HAVE GOOD WORKS.

This is a direct parallel to the teaching of St. James whom everybody admits must have known Matthew’s Gospel.

Rom 2:7 “to those who by patience in well-DOING seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give ETERNAL LIFE” (Gal 6:7; Tim 6:11)

Hebrew 12:14, “Make EVERY EFFORT to live in peace with all men and TO BE holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.”

How could our EFFORT be worthless in our Salvation/Justification if it is a REQUIREMENT to see the Lord? To “see” correspond to being saved by the Lord.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

CCC 2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, NO ONE CAN MERIT THE INITIAL GRACE OF FORGIVENESS AND JUSTIFICATION, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, WE CAN THEN MERIT for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

Enable your link next time you comment so that people can see you’re a real person, k? I like to give people the opportunity to check out something about the commenters, especially those with their own blogs.

Let me try to answer a couple of assertions first. Luke was as far as we know not an elder, but a chronicler, so we can check him off. The apostles were not elders, at least in terms of the NT chruch as set up with officers over local congregations. Still, they serve as a type of what would become the office. They weren’t fishermen at any rate, as far as we can tell, after the resurrection. Their return to fishing before the commission was incidental, and not a career. Did they supplement their income once the Lord commissioned them? Who knows? But that is beside the point.

The emphasis of the post is one that you have seemed to miss. It is not just the “highest calling” but also the driving passion, too demanding to be attached as an addendum to life.

Working is not incompatible with eldership, necessarily, it is distracting. When it is the only means of supporting the ministry, or a necessary supplement, it is understandable. When it is unnecessary, or too consuming, it is a travesty, a heart divided between loves. The calling is, as I said, not just the highest, it is exclusivistic. Note what others said about “honor.”

Honor is one aspect, but the real import is that it is work- demanding as Christ said, that one leave family, home, and lands, indicating that first to last, and not just as a priority, but first to last as separated to the work as is indicated by leaving family, home, and lands, the life of the man called is not his own. It is an attitude of heart, and in time, the whole life of one so called. It includes the complicity of the family, children under subjection and wives likewise sharing the attributions of the qualifications- one in purpose, a household undivided. All that is the man, family, house, lands are dedicated to the ministry. The life of an elder, is uniquely fashioned for the ministry, and I believe, all of it part of the calling. The qualifications are not just qualifications, but gifts of God which fit the man for the job.

Many have gone to college and worked to supplement the life. But, the end was not to continue in that fashion, but to graduate to full employment in the field of specialization. That’s the goal, full employment. Or, I might say, full deployment. For the calling is not just to occupy, but to conquer. And so the called are also said to be the sent into the harvest.

The real questions to be asked is not can you work or anything else while being an elder, it is where anything in life fits as a complimentary part of of the calling. Can you pursue civilian employment and do evangelism, study, preach, teach, counsel, visit… and a myriad of other tasks assigned to the work of the ministry? Does the statement, “A soldier on service does not entangle himself in civilian pursuits,” have meaning? The point being, that anything that detracts from the life of ministry, is an entanglement that binds the ministry.

Like marriage, work is not forbidden, but it comes with its burdens and obligations. But just like marriage, when it comes to the ministry, work must be something that one will not let come between himself and the mission. That was what I meant by Jesus example. And what Paul meant by counting as loss all things for the attainment of the one goal. Jesus did not stop at his wife’s pleading (Peter’s desire that he not go to Jerusalem). This thing remains, if a man desires to follow the Lord he must lay down his life to be able to take it up again. That has application to all believers but especially those called to stand in His place.

I didn’t direct this at you. You merely prompted me to write. My question is to the whole. The desire to be an elder is first formed upon the knowledge of just what it means to be one. For the most part, I have met few men who know for most men have never been told.